The U.S.-Israeli war on Iran has deepened rifts with several European countries. The Spanish government has been most outspoken in its opposition to the war, and U.S. allies like Germany and the United Kingdom have voiced some criticism while providing logistical support for the assault on Iran. NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte has tried to smooth over differences and placate President Trump, even as he has mused about pulling the U.S. out of the military alliance and renewed his threats to seize Greenland.

“If there’s one thing that actually one can say about President Trump, it’s that he’s been very consistent in his total disdain for Europe and for NATO,” says Nathalie Tocci, an international affairs scholar based in Madrid, as well as a Guardian Europe columnist.

“Trust in the relationship seems to be broken. And, of course, once trust is broken, it’s extremely difficult to put the genie back in the bottle.”

TRANSCRIPT

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman.

We turn now to Europe, where the war in Iran has radically upended transatlantic ties with the United States. On Wednesday, President Trump met with NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte at the White House amidst growing threats to pull the U.S. from the military alliance. After the meeting, Trump lashed out on social media, saying, in all caps, quote, ”NATO WASN’T THERE WHEN WE NEEDED THEM, AND THEY WON’T BE THERE IF WE NEED THEM AGAIN. REMEMBER GREENLAND, THAT BIG, POORLY RUN, PIECE OF ICE!!!” exclamation point three times.

The Wall Street Journal reports the Trump administration is considering moving U.S. troops out in NATO member countries Spain and Germany as punishment for not supporting the U.S. in its war on Iran.

On Thursday, the NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte suggested NATO could support the U.S. in the Strait of Hormuz, saying, quote, “If NATO can help, obviously NATO is there.” He also downplayed European opposition to the war.

MARK RUTTE: When it came time to provide the logistical and other support the United States needed in Iran, some allies were a bit slow, to say the least. In fairness, they were also a bit surprised. To maintain the element of surprise for the initial strikes, President Trump opted not to inform allies ahead of time, and I understand that. But what I see when I look across Europe today is allies providing a massive amount of support, basing, logistics and other measures, to ensure the powerful U.S. military succeeds in denying Iran a nuclear weapon and degrading its capacity to export chaos. … They have heard and are responding to President Trump’s requests.

AMY GOODMAN: For more on the Trump administration’s strained relationship with Europe, we go to Madrid, Spain, to the heart of Europe’s opposition to Trump’s war in Iran. We’re joined by Nathalie Tocci, professor of practice at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies in Europe, her latest column for The Guardian headlined “Iran is a turning point for Europe’s liberation — from Donald Trump.” Explain, Professor Tocci.

NATHALIE TOCCI: Well, I mean, of course, Amy, we have seen, over the course of over a year, a number of repeated threats and betrayals, I would say, from Washington towards Europe, be it over Ukraine, over Greenland, over tariffs, and now, in a sense, weirdly, using the excuse of the Iran war, which, frankly speaking, has very little to do with NATO, to lash out again and again. So, essentially, what we’re seeing is, I think, on the one hand, Europeans sort of feeling almost increasingly numb to these threats. Right? Not to say that the threats are necessarily empty, but it’s almost regardless of what Europeans do, regardless of how much they kiss or do not kiss the ring, these threats tend to come, because if there’s one thing that actually one can say about President Trump, it’s that he’s been very consistent in his total disdain for Europe and for NATO. So, I think there’s Europeans that are beginning increasingly to smell the coffee.

And I think, you know, coming alongside this, there’s this question of trust within NATO and in the transatlantic alliance, which is being, if not completely broken, then very, very seriously put into question, because, of course, it’s not the first time that the United States does things that Europeans don’t particularly agree with. Just think about the war in Iraq back in 2003. And yet, there was an element of trust in the relationship, of consultation, of coordination, that Europeans basically felt that there was a social contract, so to speak, with the United States that basically held. Now that social contract, beginning with the trust in the relationship, seems to be broken. And, of course, once trust is broken, it’s extremely difficult to put the genie back in the bottle.

AMY GOODMAN: Nathalie Tocci, you’re in Madrid, Spain. The Spanish prime minister said on X, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s, quote, “contempt for life and international law is intolerable.” Sánchez has welcomed the Pakistani-brokered ceasefire, but said Spain would, quote, “not applaud those who set the world on fire just because they turn up with a bucket,” in reference to President Trump and the U.S. administration. Explain.

NATHALIE TOCCI: Yeah, I mean, Spain has basically been very consistent, be it on Gaza, on Lebanon, now on Iran. And actually, it has also been very firm on Ukraine, as well, despite the fact that obviously it’s much further away from the frontline with Russia. So we have basically seen the Spanish prime minister take a principled stance when it comes to these various wars and conflict in triangulation with the United States throughout.

Now, I think what’s interesting about the Spanish case is that, especially if you compare it to other European countries, Sánchez, alongside obviously his, you know, political color to the center left, Spain, in general, has the, you know, both virtue and luck, I guess, of actually not being that dependent on the United States, be it in terms of defense, be it in terms of trade, be it in terms of energy. Spain, of course, is the country that has gone fastest and furthest on the energy transition towards renewable sources. So, basically, Sánchez, in a sense, can “afford,” quote-unquote, to be perhaps more principled than other European leaders.

But I think what’s interesting there is that the mainstream view of other European leaders is increasingly moving away from, in a sense, the sort of sycophantic, you know, kissing of the ring that we’ve seen of the NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, and, in a sense, closer to the more principled opposition that we’re seeing in Madrid here.

AMY GOODMAN: So, in response to Spain’s opposition, Germany’s opposition to U.S. war on Iran, President Trump is reportedly weighing taking the troops out of Germany and Spain and putting them in more U.S.-friendly countries, like Poland and Romania. I’m wondering if you can talk about, actually, what could happen with NATO. Could it break up? German Chancellor Friedrich Merz has warned against a split in NATO when it comes to working with Trump on opening the Strait of Hormuz, from divisions in NATO to it falling apart. What do you see?

NATHALIE TOCCI: Well, you know, I think what’s actually quite ironic about these hints and declarations that President Trump has made is that, actually, as far as Europeans are concerned, it would make a lot more sense to have more U.S. troop presence in Eastern Europe, and actually less U.S. troop presence in Southern Europe. Now, U.S. troop presence in Southern Europe, the bases that we’re talking about, are not actually to protect Spain. I mean, Spain is not about to be attacked by Morocco, or, I don’t know, Italy by Tunisia. They have actually served U.S. security interests in terms of its own power projection in the Middle East. So, if President Trump wants to move U.S. troop presence away from Southern Europe and towards Eastern Europe, both Southern Europe and Eastern Europe, I think, will be very happy about it.

AMY GOODMAN: Why do you need troops in Europe, east or west?

NATHALIE TOCCI: Well, because, of course, you know, looking east, there is the Russian threat. So, obviously, there, there is, in a sense, a threat and a growing threat perception in Europe. And although, obviously, Europeans are trying to build their own defenses and reducing dependence on the United States, this is obviously not something that can be achieved overnight.

AMY GOODMAN: Your piece in The Guardian, you write, “Italy has denied US warplanes permission to use an airbase in Sicily.” Now, that’s very interesting, because, of course, it’s a right prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, who has supported Trump in the past. That was my additional comment there. Back to your piece: “Poland has refused to send Patriot air defence systems to the Middle East, citing the ongoing threat from Russia. France has rejected overflight rights, and opposed a US-sponsored resolution at the UN security council that condemned Iran’s closure of the strait of Hormuz [calling] for its reopening by military means.” If you could take it from there? They’re also — this is exposing — and I don’t know if Trump wanted this — exactly where U.S. troops are, all over Europe, and what these connections are and what the rights of countries are, for example, to deny airspace. And were you surprised about what Meloni did in Italy?

NATHALIE TOCCI: Well, actually, I wasn’t that surprised. And I wasn’t that surprised because what is becoming increasingly clear is that closeness to Trump is becoming increasingly politically toxic in Europe. And so, even far-right governments, like my own in Italy, are actually feeling — you know, regardless of what they feel and where their political heart beats, they’re finding it increasingly uncomfortable to show support for Donald Trump, given — and here we come back to this breaking of trust — this constant lashing out against Europe. You know, Meloni may love Trump and adhere to his ideology, but she is still the prime minister of a European country, right? And so, this constant lashing out is something that is becoming increasingly uncomfortable.

So, you see — and this is what, you know, I was trying to get at earlier when saying that, OK, fine, you know, Spain started off this way — but you see a number of other European countries, from Poland to Germany to Italy to France, gradually — and the United Kingdom — gradually shifting, in a sense, towards, in a sense, a more Sánchez-like position, even if they had started off wanting to embrace Trump. But Trump is making it increasingly difficult for them to embrace him.

AMY GOODMAN: Nathalie Tocci, I want to thank you for being with us, professor of practice at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, Europe, and a senior fellow at Bocconi University’s Institute for European Policymaking, speaking to us from Madrid, Spain, also a Guardian Europe columnist. We’ll link to your new piece, “Iran is a turning point for Europe’s liberation — from Donald Trump.” Go to democracynow.org.

Coming up, voters in Hungary head to the polls on Sunday. Well, why was Vice President JD Vance there this week, before he now heads to Pakistan? Could the election mark the end of Viktor Orbán’s rule? Stay with us.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: The late Malian musician Khaira Arby, “Nightingale of the North,” performing in our Democracy Now! studio.

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