Guests

As Christians around the world prepare to celebrate Easter Sunday, we go to Palestine to speak to Reverend Munther Isaac, pastor of the Lutheran Church in Ramallah and director of the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice, located in the city of Jesus Christ’s birth. This year’s Easter preparations come against the backdrop of the U.S.-Israeli war in Iran, which many Christian nationalists in the U.S., including Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, are framing in extremist religious terms. Reverend Isaac calls the Christian Zionism espoused by Hegseth and others “a theology of war, of violence” and highlights the efforts of Pope Leo XIV, the U.S.-born head of the Catholic Church who has come out stridently against both the war and Hegseth’s rhetoric, to promote peace in the region.

Isaac also comments on Israeli authorities’ recent attempt to prevent the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem from entering the Church of the Holy Sepulchre on Palm Sunday due to Israel’s ban on gatherings at religious sites during the war. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu quickly granted access to the church following global backlash. But, “do we really need permission from an occupying authority?” asks Isaac. “Israel does not have sovereignty over, should not have sovereignty over Jerusalem. … We have been worshiping here for centuries, uninterrupted.”

Transcript

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman.

As Christians across the world are observing Holy Week, Pope Leo is escalating his calls for the war in Iran to end. He spoke in Rome on Tuesday — in a rare move, mentioned President Trump by name.

POPE LEO XIV: President Trump recently stated that he would like to end the war. Hopefully, he’s looking for an off-ramp. Hopefully, he’s looking for a way to decrease the amount of violence, of bombing, which would be a significant contribution to removing the hatred that’s being created and that’s increasing constantly, in the Middle East and elsewhere.

AMY GOODMAN: In his Palm Sunday address in Vatican City, Pope Leo called the war in Iran “atrocious” and said leaders who start wars have “hands full of blood.”

POPE LEO XIV: [translated] Brothers and sisters, this is our God, Jesus, king of peace, who rejects war, whom no one can use to justify war. He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them, saying, “Even though you make many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood.”

AMY GOODMAN: Pope Leo’s remarks were widely seen as a rebuke of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who recently prayed for military commanders to unleash “overwhelming violence” against enemies.

DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: Give them wisdom in every decision, endurance for the trial ahead, unbreakable unity, and overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy. Preserve their lives, sharpen their resolve, and let justice be executed swiftly and without remorse, that evil may be driven back and wicked souls delivered to the eternal damnation prepared for them.

AMY GOODMAN: Secretary Hegseth, who’s long embraced Christian nationalism, has repeatedly invoked Jesus Christ in recent weeks during official remarks about the war in Iran.

DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: To the families who said, “Finish this,” we will. And I say the same to every American who wants peace through strength. May Almighty God continue to bless our troops in this fight. And again, to the American people, please pray for them every day on bended knee with your family, in your schools, in your churches, in the name of Jesus Christ.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re joined now by Reverend Munther Isaac, Palestinian Christian theologian, director of the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice, the pastor of the Lutheran Church in Ramallah. He made global headlines in 2023 for giving a Christmas sermon titled “Christ in the Rubble.” He later wrote the book, Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza.

Well, we’re speaking to you now in the midst of the U.S.-Israeli war on Iran and Iran retaliating throughout the region. If you can first comment on the pope’s Palm Sunday address, where he talked about God refusing the prayers of leaders who have hands “full of blood,” Reverend Isaac?

REV. MUNTHER ISAAC: Yeah. Thank you for having me, Amy.

I applaud the pope for his courage to say what his position demands him to say as a leader of faith, as someone we look up to, to speak truth to power and to call for a vision of peace.

And what we’ve witnessed is actually two versions of Christianity, one represented by the pope, shaped by the ethics of Christ, shaped even by Old Testament prophetic tradition that emphasizes justice, care for the poor, for the oppressed, and, as I said, shaped by the vision, the ethics of Jesus. “Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are those who are thirsty for righteousness and peace.” At the other hand, we see another version, shaped by Christian nationalism, shaped by even a fascination of returning to the days of the Crusades, that by Pete Hegseth and many Christian Zionists.

And I’m grateful that the pope is bringing back sanity and trying to reclaim, as I said, the ethics of Jesus into this conversation. Our God is not a god of war. And this is really frightening to have this war framed as a religious war, even as a holy war. And ironically, they accuse the Iranian regime of invoking religion into their politics, and now we have the same thing done by the American secretary of war. So I’m grateful for the voice and courage of Pope Leo on this matter.

AMY GOODMAN: I also want to ask you about what’s happening in Jerusalem. On Sunday, Israeli police stopped the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem from entering the Church of the Holy Sepulchre on Palm Sunday to celebrate Mass, due to Israel’s ban on gatherings at religious sites during the Iran war. The Latin Patriarchate said it was the first time in centuries that the heads of the church were prevented from celebrating Palm Sunday Mass at the site, calling the incident a “grave precedent.” Following the backlash, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the Latin patriarch would receive full and immediate access to the church. Now, interestingly, I think probably the most powerful response for Netanyahu were the people you refer to as the Christian Zionists, like the U.S. Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz. If you can link these two?

REV. MUNTHER ISAAC: Yes. Well, first of all, we must emphasize that the actions of Israel stopping the patriarch from going to the church has nothing to do with safety and security. So, let’s be clear: They were four leaders going to pray in the church alone. The church has respected every security measure in terms for safety and the number of people allowed to gather. I mean, if Israel is really concerned, they would go to the Israeli Jewish neighborhoods and stop people from gathering. But let’s be clear again: If Israel is concerned for our safety, they would stop the settlers from attacking us in the West Bank. They would not kill us in mass numbers, commit a genocide in Gaza. This is about control. They stopped them on the way to the church. They want to emphasize who’s in charge of Jerusalem. This is what it’s all about.

And you mentioned the response of Prime Minister Netanyahu saying that now he’s kind enough to allow us to go and pray in our churches. I mean, do we really need permission from an occupying authority? Because, let’s remember, Jerusalem — I mean, Israel does not have sovereignty over, should not have sovereignty over Jerusalem. It was annexed illegally. And now he comes across as someone who’s allowing Christians to worship in the church, knowing that we have been worshiping here for centuries, uninterrupted. This is what it’s all about.

And I think the backlash shows sometimes that Israel does some missteps when it comes to its image. They’re always concerned about their image. So, they’ve seen the backlash, to the extent that even their biggest cheerleaders, the Christian Zionists, had to interfere. And I find it troubling that only now they come to the defense of Christians, given the great numbers of violations against Christians by Israel that we have articulated, that we have said. Christian Zionists are a big danger to our region. At the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice, we do our best to counter that theology, because we think it’s a theology of war, of violence. And what’s needed at this time is to reclaim the teachings of our religions, of our faith, that promote justice and peace, not the idea of a tribal god, of faith relativism. So, as much as, you know, we were surprised by the comments of the ambassador, Huckabee, and Ted Cruz, at the same time, let’s not kid ourselves. They are not really on the side of Christians in the Holy Land. This is all about the image of Israel in the West.

AMY GOODMAN: Your final thoughts as you speak to us from Ramallah, from the occupied West Bank, in this Holy Week, your trajectory from “Christ in the Rubble” in 2023, and then writing the book about it, to finally where we are today with the war on Iran?

REV. MUNTHER ISAAC: Yeah, I mean, sadly, things are not that much better since I made that sermon or wrote the book. Let’s not be under the illusion that the war on Gaza has ended or the genocide has ended. The siege is not lifted yet. Aid is not entering. People are still suffering as a result of ruthless decision-makers who have total — no regard, I mean, to human lives.

And on Good Friday, we’re reminded of this idea that Jesus himself became the victim of the violence of empire and religious extremism. And although things will look many times dark, silent, there will be times in which even we doubt. Where is God? Jesus himself on the cross cried, “My God, why have you forsaken me?” We cannot lose faith that justice will ultimately win. Resurrection is about the victory of life. And in these dark moments, when millions are displaced, not from Gaza now, now even in Lebanon are displaced, in which we see children pulled from under the rubble in Iran, we see more and more embrace of the culture of death and violence, and even celebrating death, more than ever we need courageous faith leaders to say what the pope said, that God takes sides with the victims, with the poor, with the marginalized, and that God is looking for voices of peace, voices of sanity, voices that elevate human dignity and life above every national religious ideology. And I hope this is the message that is preached from pulpits around the globe in this Easter, in which we celebrate life and the resurrection of Jesus.

AMY GOODMAN: Reverend Munther Isaac, Palestinian Christian theologian, director of the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice, pastor of the Lutheran Church.

This is Democracy Now! Coming up, 3,800 meatpacking workers are on strike in Greeley, Colorado. Back in 20 seconds.

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AMY GOODMAN: “Glory, Glory, Hallelujah,” performed by Rising Stars Fife and Drum Band at the Brooklyn Folk Festival.